Eurozone Crisis

[rhondda rudie]

Watched Prime Minister's Questions earlier.Much of the debate centred on the possibility of a new European treaty designed to stabilise the Eurozone.Tory MPs were salivating at the prospect of vetoing any such proposal.Any rational analysis of the situation tells us that their position is ludicrous.Preventing such a treaty would be economic suicide.The Tories must know this but their distrust of "Johnny Foreigner" seems to trump economic logic.They also called for a reduction in regulation,conviently ignoring the fact that is was a lack of regulation that got us into this mess in the first place.Of course the real reason they want less regulation is to launch an attack on workers rights.Cameron isn't taken seriously by other European leaders,I dont blame them either.

[JB40]

the british position is just an embarrassment. I've heard some tories adopt the 'fourth reich' theory that was posted here a couple of weeks ago [mr C?]. That somehow the european project was an extension of WW2 nazi global dominance. Which is a bit rich, considering that, back in the 30's, the tory party were full of praise for chancellor hitler's policies.

the main sticking point is the infamous 'robin hood' tax. this is a tax on global financial transactions, the proceeds of which will go towards alleviating child poverty.

I think, considering the role played by these same institutions in the recent global financial crash, most right-thinking people would see this as well overdue. Seeing as most of these same institutions and corporations are the biggest tax AVOIDERS.

but not according to cameron. He is fighting tooth and nail to prevent this tax being applied to the 'city of london', which is the world centre for tax avoidance. And is also the place where most of the dodgy transactions took place that started the 2008 credit 'crunch'.

and, as you said tom, even though everyone now agrees it was lack of regulation that allowed the executives to over-extend themselves, thus ruining the company's they were heading. It was the tax-payers that had to clean up the mess.

so, instead of cutting child services, or raiding people's meagre pensions, a tax on global financial transactions seems like a sensible idea. And a tax on the bonuses that these executives have received seems sensible too [considering those bonuses have been taken for FAILING on the job], but, of course, the tories have dropped that too.

and the recent lobbying scandals involving Lliam fox and bell pottinger only go to show how camerons 'detoxification' of the tory brand before the election was such bullsh*t. And even then they didn't actually WIN the election. Same old tories, problem is, they are so ideologically driven, they fail to admit when their policies have been PROVED to be very wrong.

[mrClaypole]

Originally Posted by JB40

the british position is just an embarrassment. I've heard some tories adopt the 'fourth reich' theory that was posted here a couple of weeks ago [mr C?]. That somehow the european project was an extension of WW2 nazi global dominance. Which is a bit rich, considering that, back in the 30's, the tory party were full of praise for chancellor hitler's policies.

Yep I posted a video on here a couple of weeks ago of an old Bletchley park man giving his views on Europe, some points I agreed with, others well.....but it failed to spark a debate on here at the time, perhaps I was alittle premature and needed to wait until these important few days when the leaders "save the Eurozone" for us.

Im getting more and more cynical about Camerons "sticking it to the Bosh" mentality, its increasinlgy becomming more and more clear that he DOES want to intergrate into Europe. Now all this talk of repatriating powers back from Brussels is all a smokescreen whilst we actually fall further (through the setting up of a centralised bank which has always been the outcome for our dear European leaders) into the heart of the whole project.

Im not sure where I stand on the Europe, I believe if the original idea had been stuck too that it was just a trading agreement mutually benefit for all involved then yes I would be for it, but Im not sure I want to be entangled deeper into financial ties with other countries and banks. the deeper the web the more we will be ripped off and it will be harder to find out where the web of deciet begins and ends. Weve already had the previous government lie by telling us that by keeping us out of the Euro will safeguard us from any up and coming financial disasters in smaller Euro economies, this has been proved a lie as they failed to tell us that the UK through our "membership of the IMF" we would not only have to help these doomed ecomonies by throwing money down a pit at them, we would also have to do this whilst our country was suffering a "recession" and we are massively short ourselves.

The tax payer will never get the money back that we have given to the banks, the money we have given to the IMF (who are these puppets?) or the money that is being screwed out of us now in high inflation, more tax, the wiping out of savings and pensions.

Now after readign that back.........I would be quite happy if the whole financial market collapsed and money became worthless, seems the banks and leaders are, their phoney currency may as well be too.

[nephertiti]

cant comment cause I dont really understand.... but enjoy reading these posts ......I simply do not trust Cameron ..so instinct dictates that I would be on the other side of whatever he wants....not very thought out thoughts...

[JB40]

the tories are paralyzed by their own schadenfreuder. They are that busy willing the failure of the european project that they're not thinking about what will happen if they DO manage a deal that keeps the euro on track. Where will that leave britain ??

the tories have already removed themselves from the top table.

now they are sitting at the table by the toilets with various anti-EU fringe party's that are mostly racist and neo-facist.

none of the moves that our government has made in europe are good for this country or working people.

[rhondda rudie]

Originally Posted by nephertiti

cant comment cause I dont really understand.... but enjoy reading these posts ......I simply do not trust Cameron ..so instinct dictates that I would be on the other side of whatever he wants....not very thought out thoughts...

Don't think many of us do really understand the complexities of economics Neph,and I include Cameron and Osbourne when I say that.I base my assessment on the character of the conservative party,ie their little Englander attitude and their constant desire to,as they see it,to keep the working class down ehere they belong.

[Waltjo]

I find it all so depressing, which is why I don't sit down now as I used to to listen to all the debates, I just wish that they could get the money out of these executives who have lined their pockets for years and living the life of luxury while others who have nothing are being hammered still.
They are now thinking of means testing people who are on chemotherapy to see if they can work in between sessions
We need a revolution of some sort

[rhondda rudie]

Originally Posted by JB40

the british position is just an embarrassment. I've heard some tories adopt the 'fourth reich' theory that was posted here a couple of weeks ago [mr C?]. That somehow the european project was an extension of WW2 nazi global dominance. Which is a bit rich, considering that, back in the 30's, the tory party were full of praise for chancellor hitler's policies.

the main sticking point is the infamous 'robin hood' tax. this is a tax on global financial transactions, the proceeds of which will go towards alleviating child poverty.

I think, considering the role played by these same institutions in the recent global financial crash, most right-thinking people would see this as well overdue. Seeing as most of these same institutions and corporations are the biggest tax AVOIDERS.

but not according to cameron. He is fighting tooth and nail to prevent this tax being applied to the 'city of london', which is the world centre for tax avoidance. And is also the place where most of the dodgy transactions took place that started the 2008 credit 'crunch'.

and, as you said tom, even though everyone now agrees it was lack of regulation that allowed the executives to over-extend themselves, thus ruining the company's they were heading. It was the tax-payers that had to clean up the mess.

so, instead of cutting child services, or raiding people's meagre pensions, a tax on global financial transactions seems like a sensible idea. And a tax on the bonuses that these executives have received seems sensible too [considering those bonuses have been taken for FAILING on the job], but, of course, the tories have dropped that too.

and the recent lobbying scandals involving Lliam fox and bell pottinger only go to show how camerons 'detoxification' of the tory brand before the election was such bullsh*t. And even then they didn't actually WIN the election. Same old tories, problem is, they are so ideologically driven, they fail to admit when their policies have been PROVED to be very wrong.

Don't know if you saw Newsnight last night Jimmy.Paxman was interviewing two tories,Malcolm Rifkind and some right wing bint Nadine Dorries.They were scrapping like two ferrets in a sack,not uncommon when it comes to tories and Europe,but the one thing they agreed on was the need to prevent the financial transaction tax.I agree with you that it's an eminately sensible idea that actually gets those responsible for the crisis to contribute to the solution.But,in the interests of fairness,and in order to stop any nation getting a Cayman Islands style advantage the tax needs to be EU wide.Sounds like a great idea to me.

[mrClaypole]

Did you see the film beforehand about how we got into this financial mess in the 1st place?.
I had to stop watching after an hour as it was making me angry. The greed displayed by soem of the bankers is just so unpallatable to me that I had to turn it off for my blood pressure.
Every bank and insurance company were in it together, they were selling sub prime debt to their own companies and insuring the non repayment of the debts through subsiduries of their own firms, so that they got paid commission THREE TIMES!!!. They also admitted that the commission wasnt real money and didnt exist in the system, yet they were still able to award the executives millions from slush funds that they had in reserve.

Not only that, when the insurance companies went bust, they were sold on for a few dollars a share to the big banks that packaged the toxic debt in the first place, it was like them paying for their own executions. Still the big insurance company execs didnt care as they made billions before the system ate itself.

There was no thoguht about the millions and millions who are forced into unemployment due to their actions.........no remorse at all.

The scary thing and one that confirms alot of my suspicions, is that most of the US governments financial advisors and policy makers were recruited from these big banking firms, knowing full well what policies to push in order for their old firms to make money.

The credo I got from the film was that, if a banker tells you somethign is a good investment, then it isnt. It will leave the ordinary man on the street potless. They know the winners already in the rigged races, they just have to bet slightly less on the losing side, knowing they will make more on the outcome. These are really screwed up people, who have no feeling towards the suffering of humanity in general, as long as they get their huge house on some island away from th gproles.

[JB40]

agree 110% with every thing you said there mr C.

another aspect of all this is the obsession with 'growth'. Executives decided that they could award themselves massive bonuses for achieving growth.

In the couple of years before the collapse of northern rock, their executives decided to award themselves a 10% rise in income for every 1% rise in business. This meant that they actually went out looking for loans to give, and offered all kinds of over-the-top incentives for people to take up loans. Checks went out of the window as norther rock took on more and more toxic debt, and they managed to give the appearance of rapid growth. When it turned out that the growth shown on the books weren't worth the paper they were written on, the whole company collapsed.

this is where the executives greed came in to play. Without caring what would happen when the truth came out. Which isn't surprising considering the way they seem to have gotten away with it.

reality is, they concentrated on artificial 'growth' and forgot about the most important part of any business, which is PROFIT.

if they hadn't been so greedy, and kept only a percentage of the money that was taken out in bonuses [less than 10%] back, the banks would have retained their liquidity. And the credit crunch would never have happened.