A Personal Perspective......

[rhondda rudie]

......on my experiences at Liverpool FC in the light of the recent racial controversies.

As most UK loonies will know rugby is very much the number one game in Wales but as a kid and young adult I also had a deep love for the round ball game.Most of the kids in my village followed the fortunes of Manchester United or Liverpool avidly.The Merseysiders were my choice.

Just after I started on the railway a group of four of us went up to watch two Liverpool home games during the 1986-87 season.The first game was against Newcastle and was a great day out.We stood on the legendary Kop and the atmosphere was fantastic.There was great humour in the chants from both sets of fans the highlight of which was a musical debate as to who was the hardest,Oz from Auf Weidersehen Pet or Yosser from Boys From The Black Stuff.Newcastle fans,who's club were battling relegation at the time,even drew warm applause from the Kop with a rendition of We're Going To Win The League.

The second game I went to was against Wimbledon.There was a noticeable difference in the atmosphere as soon as the teams came out to warm up.Wimbledon came out and ran towards the Kop.They faced a barrage of hostility and the reason why was obvious.Newcastle's team had been all white but Wimbledon had at least two black players in John Fashanu and Carlton Fairweather (they may have had more,can't remember).Fashanu in particular received some vile abuse including much use of the n word from a group of fans standing about 30 yards from us.They were almost hysterical in their hatred.I found it bewildering rather than frightening but was still shocked.Fashanu put his hand to his ear and then did some ball juggling skills and,to be fair,most of the Kop responded with warm applause.

When the game got underway Wimbledon's black players were targeted with abuse whenever they touched the ball but the biggest shock came when at least half the Kop reguarly sang "There aint no n*ggers in the Liverpool team" to the tune of the Camptown Ladies.Bear in mind this was before they signed John Barnes.Sickening.Wimbledon won the game 2-1 and Fashanu scored.Although I followed Liverpool,and still do to a lesser extent,I was glad Wimbledon won that day.The mid 80s was also probably when fan violence was probably at its peak so there was a massive police presence at the game.This was alien to me as I was used to going to rugby internationals with far bigger crowds with perhaps half a dozen policemen in the ground.It struck me that any sport that needed so many police had something seriously wrong with it.

I'm not suggesting that Liverpool were any worse than any other top club for racism at that time and there is no doubt that tremendous strides have been in combating racism in football but the club's clumsy handling of the Suarez affair brought back my sad memories.

I haven't attended a top level football match since.

[Soul Adventurer]

Hi Tom,

I'm less of a football fanatic than in my youth (though I was made up that Man Utd won yesterday!). The scenario you described with Wimbledon and Liverpool was all too common an occurence. By the mid eighties I was more into music than sport but it was probably the violence as much as the racism that would have put me off from attending games.

It was endemic of the times, wasn't it? Even the 2 tone gigs had their share of right wing idiots, what they were doing there, god knows. It was an offshoot of the football crowd and in the late 70s/early 80s it was rough.

The black footballers showed incredible resilience in those days, and this was the period where you had great players such as Barnesy, Laurie Cunningham, Cyrille Regis etc. They basically used that hostility to empower their game, but there must have been days when they really must have been hurt. Cyrille's autobiography is a good read.

Things have improved but as various events and media stories on non football related race themed incidents shows, the old views are still there and it doesn't take much to trigger them. There are some fans (and heads of FIFA) who seem to think racist insults are just part of the banter, but at the end of the day, if it's unacceptable in the office, then it's not acceptable on the football pitch.

Another thing should be mentioned. You get people saying "well black people call each other 'niggers' as a term of endearment, so why is it racist for any other ethnic group to say it?" I think this is a related issue and I'll just put it out there for anyone who wishes to elaborate.

As I say, it's got better. I played at someone's wedding opposite Elland Rd, it was on a match day, with loads of Leeds and Toon fans milling about. A few years ago I'd have been wary but I honestly felt safe. Generally speaking, it has got better. Though it's still there and there's a long way to go.

[rhondda rudie]

Thanks for the reply Imani.

I was well aware of right wing groups being involved in football hooliganism but thought that only really applied to London clubs,in particular Chelsea,West Ham and Millwall.If you remember stories abounded about the humour and warmth of the Kop and I saw evidence of that when they played Newcastle.That's why their conduct at the Wimbledon game came as such a shock.To be honest I've never looked at football in the same way since.

Also totally agree with your point about FIFA etc.When I said tremendous strides had been made in combating racism in football I meant in the UK.Serious problems remain in Spain,Italy and most of Eastern Europe.

[Soul Adventurer]

Originally Posted by rhondda rudie

Thanks for the reply Imani.

I was well aware of right wing groups being involved in football hooliganism but thought that only really applied to London clubs,in particular Chelsea,West Ham and Millwall.If you remember stories abounded about the humour and warmth of the Kop and I saw evidence of that when they played Newcastle.That's why their conduct at the Wimbledon game came as such a shock.To be honest I've never looked at football in the same way since.

Also totally agree with your point about FIFA etc.When I said tremendous strides had been made in combating racism in football I meant in the UK.Serious problems remain in Spain,Italy and most of Eastern Europe.

If you can get to watch this, Tom, check it out. It's a BBC documentary from a couple of years back. I saw it last year and it covers quite a bit of what we're discussing.

[UK Warrior]

Sadly, it still exists. Not just in football, but also in the wider society. It all depends on where you go though. In towns and cities where there is little evidence of 'minorities' the people are a little more comfortable in voicing their opinions. I was told by a WOMAN in Clacton Tesco to "go back home" only about a year ago. To which I replied "where, Leicester?". In the same town I walked into my local, where I had great rapport with the landlord etc. I walked in, ordered my usual only to be subjected to a comment by a half pissed man in his 60's who said in a surprised tone of voice "you speak very well for a...." he then realised that he'd already said too much. The landlord was mortified and my Mrs couldn't believe it either, but at least she saw with her won two eyes that "it" does still exist. Before that she just thought that I was perhaps exaggerating the issue a little.

It isn't confined to the football terraces, not by a long shot. The Suarez affair has merely served to bring the issue back out in the open, giving the casual racists an opportunity to feel as though there is once again safety in numbers. If all of the lads on the terraces agree with that view, then I'll be OK if I just call someone a name or two.

Actually, no it won't be OK. Not at all.

I'll post later about a 'debate' I had on a Leeds United Facebook page last night. I'm still in a state of disbelief about it!!

Speaking of Leeds, the second half starts in a mo.

TTFN,

UKW.

[Dean M]

Originally Posted by rhondda rudie

Thanks for the reply Imani.

I was well aware of right wing groups being involved in football hooliganism but thought that only really applied to London clubs,in particular Chelsea,West Ham and Millwall.If you remember stories abounded about the humour and warmth of the Kop and I saw evidence of that when they played Newcastle.That's why their conduct at the Wimbledon game came as such a shock.To be honest I've never looked at football in the same way since.

Also totally agree with your point about FIFA etc.When I said tremendous strides had been made in combating racism in football I meant in the UK.Serious problems remain in Spain,Italy and most of Eastern Europe.

Tom
for the record
the main hooligan at West Ham was a black guy called Cass Pennant
if you google inter city firm..he would be the first name to pop up
he also has stalls out side upton park on match days selling ICF merchandice
dont get me wrong...paul ince is still hated by the hammers fans and i think he is one of the very few people who has been racially abused ...and that is because of what he done not skin colour (even though i dont agree the racial comments..he is still a c**t for posing a Man ure shirt whilst signed to the hammers)..deep down that must show how much we didnt want him to leave...Defoe is another....but i have never heard any racist chants towards him...we just hate him

if i'm not mistaken Clive Best was one of the first black players to play in top flight football and the hammers faithfull took him to heart

i was at the West Ham V Millwall game a few year ago and there was reports of racist chants from both Millwall and West Ham aimed at players...that was media bull shyte..both teams had black players on the pitch..
the abuse was aimed at a black West Ham fan and a Black Millwall fan who both encouraging it to get reaction and support from thier own fans...it was treated as light banter by both parties

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter_City_Firm

[rhondda rudie]

Originally Posted by Dean M

Tom
for the record
the main hooligan at West Ham was a black guy called Cass Pennant
if you google inter city firm..he would be the first name to pop up
he also has stalls out side upton park on match days selling ICF merchandice
dont get me wrong...paul ince is still hated by the hammers fans and i think he is one of the very few people who has been racially abused ...and that is because of what he done not skin colour (even though i dont agree the racial comments..he is still a c**t for posing a Man ure shirt whilst signed to the hammers)..deep down that must show how much we didnt want him to leave...Defoe is another....but i have never heard any racist chants towards him...we just hate him

if i'm not mistaken Clive Best was one of the first black players to play in top flight football and the hammers faithfull took him to heart

i was at the West Ham V Millwall game a few year ago and there was reports of racist chants from both Millwall and West Ham aimed at players...that was media bull shyte..both teams had black players on the pitch..
the abuse was aimed at a black West Ham fan and a Black Millwall fan who both encouraging it to get reaction and support from thier own fans...it was treated as light banter by both parties

Inter City Firm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes Dean,I do know about Pennant.I wasn't getting at West Ham,just saying what my perception was at the time.Media coverage of the time,probably unfairly, pinpointed the three London clubs as having hooligan elements that were involved with the far right and,as someone from the sticks as it were,I was under the mistaken impression that racism wasn't a problem elsewhere even though I knew violence was.

I also remember when I was very young that Clyde Best was the ONLY black player at the top level in the UK.

[Dean M]

i had to laugh
my son came home from school with homework to write about family from different countries
my son is more white than a bottle of milk..not even a hint off a tan
when he said he had an aunt fron Ghana...his teacher didnt belive it

here is a run down of my family

Mum - boyfriend from Rhodisia - his family from india
sister - child's dad family from Pakistan
brother 1 - 2 kids with a black girl
Brother 2 - with a girl from france
brother in law - 1 child with a thai girl (married and still living in thailand)
cousin 1 - married with 2 kids to a girl from gana
cousin 2- marrying a girl from sweden
aunt - change nationality to canadian - has 2 kids

[Dean M]

Originally Posted by rhondda rudie

Yes Dean,I do know about Pennant.I wasn't getting at West Ham,just saying what my perception was at the time.Media coverage of the time,probably unfairly, pinpointed the three London clubs as having hooligan elements that were involved with the far right and,as someone from the sticks as it were,I was under the mistaken impression that racism wasn't a problem elsewhere even though I knew violence was.

I also remember when I was very young that Clyde Best was the ONLY black player at the top level in the UK.

you just had to correct me on his name didnt ya

[Jimmy Jimmy]

Originally Posted by UK Warrior

Sadly, it still exists. Not just in football, but also in the wider society. It all depends on where you go though. In towns and cities where there is little evidence of 'minorities' the people are a little more comfortable in voicing their opinions. I was told by a WOMAN in Clacton Tesco to "go back home" only about a year ago. To which I replied "where, Leicester?". In the same town I walked into my local, where I had great rapport with the landlord etc. I walked in, ordered my usual only to be subjected to a comment by a half pissed man in his 60's who said in a surprised tone of voice "you speak very well for a...." he then realised that he'd already said too much. The landlord was mortified and my Mrs couldn't believe it either, but at least she saw with her won two eyes that "it" does still exist. Before that she just thought that I was perhaps exaggerating the issue a little.

It isn't confined to the football terraces, not by a long shot. The Suarez affair has merely served to bring the issue back out in the open, giving the casual racists an opportunity to feel as though there is once again safety in numbers. If all of the lads on the terraces agree with that view, then I'll be OK if I just call someone a name or two.

Actually, no it won't be OK. Not at all.

I'll post later about a 'debate' I had on a Leeds United Facebook page last night. I'm still in a state of disbelief about it!!

Speaking of Leeds, the second half starts in a mo.

TTFN,

UKW.

Glad I checked back as this has saved me some typing. Football terraces, like the internet, provide the anonymity that allows these individuals to say/sing things they would never dream of doing in a one on one situation.

Again the football fan, like a lot of society, would say 'it's only a bit of banter' or 'I'm not a racist but.....'